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TIME TO MAKE FRIENDS.
FRENEMIES ARE IN.
Welcome to our newest CR meme!
We've wrapped up our first event and are currently in an interlude, so you guys can explore the ruins at your leisure (so this is a great time to enable your friends, wink wonk). We likely won't have another TDM until August and will probably stick to something of a bimonthly schedule for them.
Additionally, we have a comment at the top of this post for feedback, if you have any you'd like to provide.
If you have any questions, please direct them to our FAQ!
CR MEME FORM:
( RUINS: EXPLORATION | ARCHIVE )
MOD FEEDBACK.
no subject
I think one bit of feedback I would give about the initial event log is that it was a liiittle confusing in terms of what characters could do and what they needed to do to escape the rooms. I felt like I got a bit lost in the different results of the break/change/reflect scenarios (especially the break option, which seemed to have two different "endings") and how they interacted with each other, as well as how each worked with the whole sunside/moonside deal. I think if there's another event of this type, it would be useful to have a bit more of a clear structure of what you can do, what it looks like, what happens afterwards if you do X or Y, etc.
Also this is more of a suggestion than feedback, but it would be good to have the Discord a bit more prominently linked in the navigation (maybe next to the Plurk link), as there seems to be quite a bit of plotting/discussion going on in there.
no subject
We're definitely going to work harder to make things clearer in the future; it's become a major priority in light of the last two logs. Please feel free to give us more feedback on this as we move forward, especially since that's the only way to tell if what we're doing is working! We've tried to err in favor of giving you guys less to read for events so far, but we definitely believe it's helped contribute to this lack of clarity.
Likewise, the Discord issue is one we've been thinking about, especially since we never intended for Discord to become important to playing in the game. Consequently, we would rather deemphasize its importance, especially since not everyone uses Discord. While players are free to use game chat much the same way as Plurk, we don't want anyone to lose out on game content. This is why we've posted a public speculation page for the Alpelbet on the OOC community, for example, and generally push for players to ask questions or post important content (like Dove's player quest) in places accessible to all players. However, while we don't want to unintentionally foster an exclusive atmosphere, not giving better access to our Discord could have the same effect, so we'll include a link on our navigation page!
no subject
Regarding the Discord, I don't feel like there was as much active plotting there as was ever implied, and at this point, I feel like even chatting with other players is not really allowed anymore. I feel it was mostly used for ooc chat and discussing each others threads in a sharing context, and there was a lot of speculative discussion but rarely was there legitimate plotting that went on in it that wasn't in passing or just gauging interest. This was the norm when AIM game chats were a thing, which not everyone would participate in either but was never an issue if people didn't want to participate in group chat, and that is how I interacted with it.
Now with all this relaid emphasis on how the Discord shouldn't have plotting or discussion without also being elsewhere because it seems exclusive otherwise, I don't feel welcome to even joke about my CR with other people on the server anymore. Maybe the norm has changed, so maybe I've been using it wrong this whole time. I don't really know. Either way, each reiteration of how the Discord is too exclusive feels like I'm being told off for daring to be friendly with others and talking about our mutual CR on a platform I happen to favor, so I don't feel comfortable using it at all anymore. It was mentioned at some point that some discussion could have been taken to DMs, but a lot of my conversations were not 1:1, and I'd wanted to give others a chance to jump into discussion (which they often did) without locking it down to a hard number, as is usually the intent of a server anyway. Taking it to DMs would actually be making it more exclusive by comparison too, so I really have no idea what I'm expected to do.
All that said, I can say quite plainly that my activity the first month was due to others actively engaging me in game chat and showing an interest in writing with me on the Discord server. Since that's not allowed to be a thing anymore, my interest and enthusiasm have waned significantly, for even as much as I love the premise and have enjoyed everything in the actual plot so far. I don't use Plurk, so maybe that's my problem because I can't discuss things with groups of people that way, either plotting actively or in passing, but I personally don't have the time/energy for social media accounts, and the Discord server is what I'd been using to discuss the game outside of PMs. My most active CR isn't even on the game Discord, and I mostly communicate with them through PMs too, so. Whatever that means in context of the rest. I'm probably the square peg here though, so if I should just stop using the Discord server, then I'll deal.
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I know balancing a Discord can be really tricky modwise and I sympathise with that as someone who has had to do it myself a few times. There are always going to be people who are more comfortable and less comfortable participating with the community in that environment, but the same can also be said for Plurk and OOC comms as well, and as long as there's no particular requirement for any of them I don't see the issue with allowing it to continue.
I honestly feel the same as Pytho in this -- a lot of my energy for the game was coming from the Discord chat and all the plotting going on in there, and when it was sort of shut down out of nowhere (the deletion of most of the channels and the updated rules to say we can't post plot in there), it felt like getting a bucket of cold water dumped on my excitement. I feel a little like we're being blamed or punished for something, which, idk? If that's how it's supposed to be? So now every time I load up the Discord all I can think is that I need to be careful not to annoy anyone, which sucks.
But yeah, if there's a reason why I've sort of drifted away a little bit, that's what it is. I also have some comments about the plot in general which I'll stick in a separate comment to keep things ~on track.
no subject
The updated rules about plotting on the Discord server are specifically about accessibility to the game plot as a whole; it's something we intended to establish before the game even opened and we apologize for not making that clear. We have no issue with players plotting with each other for one-on-one content, in the same way you might use Plurk. Basically, we just want players to remember not to unintentionally hoard segments of the game plot or discuss it exclusively in a place where other players might not see it.
As for the deletion of channels, this has absolutely nothing to do with player conduct and was actually us cleaning up our own mess. We cut down on channels that were superficial in nature (comics, tunes, Pel's tarot channel that was really meant as a joke, and spreadsheets), because they could easily be folded into the general or memes channels. Having as many channels as we did felt unwieldy and, since most of them were in the spam category, it seemed unnecessary to distinguish between them. It's not a punishment or meant to single out any player in the game, but rather us realizing some of the channels weren't even used and we should neaten the place up a bit. It's just easier for us and, we hope, players to keep track of fewer channels.
That said, we can see how the suddenness of the change could be alarming and we apologize. While it's doubtful we'll need do anything like that again, it's something we'll certainly keep in mind in the future.
no subject
If we understand correctly, the problem with the sun/moon divide was a lack of clarity regarding which side players picked, while the escape rooms was whether you could do more than one room. We did notice some people forgot to mention which side they picked in the TDM, which is why we introduced an element in our first game log that let people freely switch sides. As for the escape rooms, we intended to let players do as many escape rooms as they wanted, but it's definitely our bad if there was ever any uncertainty on that front! We're going to do our best to sort out future clarity issues, but please don't hesitate to come to us with questions if something else is unclear.
As for the game chat, we have no issue with people using Discord to discuss threads or other topics, as long as any spam-type content stays in the appropriate channels. Our biggest concern with the game chat is the possibility it could become necessary to participate in the overarching plot, so we want to ensure players understand that important plot-related material (namely, things everyone in the game should have the chance to see) should go on the Dreamwidth communities. This is something we meant to establish from the get-go, since no players in game should need to be on any platform besides Dreamwidth (which goes for Plurk as well). Besides that, we obviously want players to be mindful of how they engage each other on the server, since it's subject to the same rules of conduct as the game itself, but that's where our concerns begin and end.
Robin also replied to echo some concerns and name others, so there's some additional clarification there if needed!
no subject
In general, I would have liked more detail on everything we were allowed/not allowed to do. Like mentioned above, the escape rooms -- what exactly can be done, etc. Since we are dealing with a sort of fantastical setting and many of these things are purely of the mods' own creation, I think there's a lot of trepidation re: stepping on the mods' feet because we don't want to fuck up and make a mistake, and if the write-up is at all vague that just gives people more hesitation.
In regards to Discord, I'd just like to give a dissenting opinion that I prefer keeping Discords to game chatter only without plotting. (I actually prefer Plurk alone, since it's not time-relevant and therefore easier to keep up with, but that's a whole other thing.) If you don't have the time or energy to dedicate to being on the Discord often, you feel like you fall behind, and it's easy for people to feel left out when those who do have the time/energy dominate the Discord and therefore dominate the plotting. This is not an attack or judgment on anyone who is active on the Discord at all, just an observation I've made from various Discords I've been in. I can't speak on any of the other Discord issues mentioned because I haven't experienced them myself.
You guys make OOC plotting posts, which I love, but very few people seem to be making use of them. I don't know if mere mod encouragement would be enough incentive for players to utilize them, but I have definitely found OOC plotting posts to be successful in my old games that did not use Discord for plotting. For each event log, they basically reiterated the information given in the log in a bullet-point format so players could easily reference it and say what they were going to do. It's possible the playerbase just isn't right for that plotting format, but I feel like we, the players, haven't given it a real try.
Despite all these paragraphs above lmao, y'all have a really interesting and unique game going so please don't be discouraged by any bumps in the road.
no subject
I think being deliberate about using OOC posts to plot and reach out to other players could help make chat's position--for chatter--feel less vital and more like the optional fun it ideally should be. For future logs, hopefully the mods posting CR memes at the same time will make a difference? I am definitely a vote for having an OOC platform for plotting log adventures.
(I also just wanted to mention that Octavia was a lot of fun, and I'd love it if you did end up coming back someday!)
no subject
While we're going to work on being clearer about how upcoming events work, if you had differing issues from Robin's (the bulk of their focus was on end results and how it interacted with other elements), would you mind elaborating on them? We're particularly interested in what kind of things you would've liked to know. We wanted to structure the game so there's no "wrong" answer to a character's actions, but if either that isn't clear or is stymieing players, we're prepared to work out how to best remedy this.
We addressed the comments about the Discord in more detail above, but we don't want anyone to feel obligated to use any non-Dreamwidth platform in order to enjoy their time in game. This shouldn't be an obstacle to any player and we'll do our best to adhere to this.
We're also planning to readjust our CR meme timing, so it coordinates with event logs, to see if this encourages people to reach out to each other on the game communities! Obviously, how people choose to plot with each other (and which platforms they use) is entirely up to them, but we'd like players to have better OOC community options than we've had so far.
no subject
I was excited to play in the setting but I was afraid of being told I'd screwed something up and I didn't feel like there was always enough information given for me to know how everything would work. Re: Robin's crit, the end results are definitely part of that. I feel like this is probably a feeling that can extend to other people, but obviously I can't speak for them; I just know that when you're playing in a complete fantasy world like this one (especially with a small player base, so lots of eyes are on you if you mess up!) there's more hesitance involved in writing.
I hope that makes sense... I'm kinda word-vomiting here, sorry.
no subject
The shadow parasites, for instance, are a great CR opportunity, but I'm personally intimidated by the idea that it means essentially (from what I understand, I may be misreading the post) playing an NPC for a setting I don't understand yet, so I'm wary about doing things "wrong" and that's making me hesitate to make plans. Something like "and now there's an earthquake so deal with that" is an easier thing to respond to (especially for a character like Logan who has 0 interest in decoding the clues/language).
I'm also really missing having an OOC post alongside the event post. I know this is additional work, but between there being no OOC plotting post and the Discord being closed off as a place to plot game stuff it feels like there isn't anywhere to just throw in and say "I want to do this, let's plan" (which imo is a massive part of getting people excited/into the event). It doesn't have to be a long involved post, even just a couple of paragraphs of "here's what you can do for this event" and a place for people to ask questions and comment would be fine.
Regarding the network: I like that it's limited, since it encourages more log posts and IC interaction, but at the same time it makes it difficult to establish an IC community, especially for characters who have no reason to want to mass text a bunch of strangers. So it kind of feels like everyone's going to either end up sticking with established/canon CR or not talking to anyone.
I'm also a little confused about why the log community doesn't allow closed logs to be posted. I understand it might be a problem when people are only posting closed logs, but it also makes it feel a bit (for lack of a better word) unfriendly to be told "take it elsewhere". Personally I love reading other people's closed logs even when I'm not involved at all, so being cut off from seeing what's going on with other characters isn't as fun. Maybe posting open logs could be incentivised a little, with some bonus AC or something?
Finally, it feel like it might be nice to have bit more structure around how characters are living in the space and how time is passing. Right now it feels like everyone has spent weeks(?) basically sleeping on the ground, which is fine, but it makes everything feel a bit.. idk, transient? Like I'm not sure whether to structure CR around that or whether it's possible to make like.. a camp somewhere. Just having an officially organised way for characters to create a "home" (whatever that is in this place) would be nice.
I really really like this game, the setting and the CR I've got going right now are GREAT, so I want it to keep going and thrive. I think it just needs a bit of TLC and joining up some bits and pieces to get it going.
no subject
1) We always want players to feel like they can try absolutely anything with the setting and want to encourage players to make decisions based on what's IC for their character first and foremost. We've wanted to avoid railroading characters into a single path since, in our experience as players, having a lot of purely reactive events like natural disasters reinforce a sense of IC helplessness. We also don't want anyone to feel like they're "wrong" for doing something a certain way, but if players feel the game is too vague to engage, they can't do what they want/are afraid to try, or that they can't come to us with questions (no matter how seemingly ridiculous or specific), that's certainly on us and something we'll work to fix in the future.
2) We're planning to sync our CR memes up with the timing of the logs! This will hopefully provide a good place for players to do all of these things.
3) Given the amount of confusion surrounding the network and preference for it over broadcasts, we intend to scrap the purely one-on-one texting feature. We'll make an announcement on the topic with the AC reminder.
4) The way our AC is structured is to root out insularity, which has been a huge problem in other games we've played in, and is especially bad for a small game. Don’t get us wrong; focusing on one or two other people is fine in small doses, especially when you’re worried about getting overwhelmed with tags, but this is why we're fond of inboxes! And you can have closed prompts on the main community, as long as there is at least one open prompt with it.
5) If your character is the type to make a camp or establish some kind of communal base, you're more than welcome to do so; this was part of the incentive to establish fixed locations in the ruins. That said, clearly this wasn't obvious to players, so that's on us; we'll work to make the availability of these options clearer.
no subject
1. Discord: It seems to me like the problem isn't necessarily the Discord itself but the way it's used in a larger game context--the balance it has, so to speak, with the game as a whole. If threads are being dropped in the game, OOC plotting posts aren't getting use, and characters aren't tagging out or top-leveling on logs, I can see why a fast chat might look like an exclusive clique. I think it's a situation where the chat being more active than the actual game is nagl--it seems like it might have a depressing effect on people who aren't into Discord chats as well as potential players who might look around and see a ghost town.
2. What's discouraging me lately: It feels like network posts and broadcasts have received a lot more response than logs--and honestly, I'm not really here for network-style tagging, personally. I'd really like to be able to dig into in-person interactions, but the last several logs have been really slow starters. The fact that the chat has been fast has had a lot to do with my trying to use it less (though I don't know if I've succeeded there), because it 's starting to feel like sort of a shadow substitute for the actual game.
3. My part in all of this: I don't think I've been a model player by any means, and I want to apologize for any part I could have played in making the game feel less welcoming to anyone in it. The timing of this last log hasn't been ideal for me, since as noted elsewhere, I've been out and about, but I've been trying to spend less time in chat and more time engaging players in the game and on the TDM. I'm hoping to top-level tonight, when I'll have a little more time, and I'd be excited to plot stuff out with anyone!
4. Miscellaneous suggestion: I think one of the coolest aspects of the TDM was the fact that one could interact with the setting, and I regret not taking advantage of it when I was TDM-ing, because I haven't had the chance since. I'd love it if that showed up a little more often in plot logs.
5. Finally: I'd really like to see this game succeed, because I love the setting, so I hope some of this helps.
no subject
And really, there's nothing inherently wrong with text or voice posts, but at this point I feel like they've become a substitute for substantive engagement with the setting. Once again, I don't know what to do about this (short of an event that knocks out phone usage ahahahahahah), but you're not the only one who finds the difference in activity jarring. I find logging infinitely preferable--or, if we could make using network/radio threads to jump-start logs more of a thing, that'd be great as well.
no subject
1) These are good points and we're definitely taking them under consideration! We're hoping that adjusting the CR meme's scheduling will help offer better opportunities on the OOC community.
2) We're looking into how we can help players get involved with logs; it seems clarity and intimidation are big factors and something we're working on. If there are any other suggestions, please let us know!
Also, we're planning on having a setting-specific top level on TDMs. If it goes well, we'll make those more common. And we don't mind players coming to us via the setting's inbox at any time, with any weirdness you can think of!
no subject
1) One of the things that attracted me to this game was the promise of a player shaped plot. I love games where the world and plot react to player choice, I love it when mods put effort into their lore like you guys clearly have with the ruins alphabet, I love feeling like I'm part of a story where my character can have a goal to work towards and their actions can directly affect the setting in a positive or negative way.
That said, I'm not entirely sure what direction this one is going in and what, exactly, the characters are working towards past "you're in a spooky world that's probably sentient, survive." Everything feels very vague and impersonal, and it's hard to get invested when characters aren't really given any motivation past the very broad one of surviving and maybe trying to find their way back home. I appreciate that we have so much freedom to have our run of the world, but the way it's implemented makes me feel a little directionless like I'm playing in a sandbox rather than an actual game. Which brings me to my next point:
2) Lack of structure. This is the second biggest problem I have so far. I like the idea that the world is constantly shifting and reacting to players, but as with the plot, everything feels a little too broad and undefined. Another player summed it up best when they said it feels like things are transient, and I feel like the big reason for that is that, for as flexible as the world is, there's really not that much to DO in it. The difference between the city/core and the ruins are a good example of this. In the city/core, it's just (and this is as far as I can see) a very broadly defined abandoned city with bizarre, shifting architecture and shadows. But with the ruins, there are landmarks that can be interacted with like magic crystal caves and a river filled with treasure, on top of a variety of monsters that can be fought, so it feels like an actual setting where characters can get together and do things instead of wander around aimlessly. I'm not saying to give up on the world's shifting aspect, but more fixed locations that have things to do and spaces to live in would be nice!
That's all I have for now; I'll edit if anything else comes to mind. I really do like the concept and the playerbase you guys have, and I'd love to learn more about the world you've created! I just think it needs a little fine-tuning, that's all.
no subject
1) Some quick background: In the early days of the game, we had a poll about the game's pace, because we were worried people weren't able to keep up. The winning vote was one log every three weeks. Without realizing it, this affected our overall plot pacing and where we intended to be by now; i.e., a situation where characters would have more information to interact with the world and hopefully inform their goals. This isn't blaming the players or the voters; while we've adjusted game events (for example, the current event was meant to be split up into two parts), it's definitely our bad on how this has affected the way we disseminate information. It’s something we hope to fix come the next log.
2) The game is meant to have more fixed elements! The ruins are basically an example of how future locations will work, with various plants, animals, and features for players to interact with. The world core is meant to be more of an entry point; it factored in so heavily in the first event since it was the only section of the world that existed. Moving on, there should definitely be more spaces for characters to make their own.
no subject
I joined this game for the plot. I had a fantastic experience in Agoge, as far as the mods fostering player creativity and allowing us as players to ask “What would challenge my character? Where do I want to take them?” then helping us to actually do that. William specifically is a character who can stagnate (or lose his goddamn mind) very easily if there's not a metaplot that he can impact and that builds toward something. Very few games fit this bill (see what I did there...), and until WY came along I was pretty much resigned to sticking to memes.
Maybe because of my experiences in Agoge (or maybe because of the type of character William is—he will try to either find or CREATE meaning wherever he can, and I get that that is absolutely not true of everyone), I haven't been confused or frustrated by the plot set-up in WY. There's been plenty of stuff for my character to pursue, plot-wise—the shadows, the mirrors, the mystery letters. I don't have a lot of free time (to the point where, if the game had gotten more people apping, I probably would've held off on joining until my life calmed down) so I haven't been able to pursue plot things as much as I'd like, but I'd been looking forward to using some bonus points to have him discover a new feature of the world. (“Why do you use the past tense? Are you dropping?”) WELL THAT BRINGS ME TO THE MAJOR PROBLEM I'VE ENCOUNTERED
I have had a hell of a time—and this is not directed at anyone in particular, like clearly it's something we need to work together to fix—getting other people to plot with me. It's honestly been super discouraging. The first log went well, I made plans with quite a few people! We were mostly successful with playing them out! After that, though, it's really been difficult. I get that the game is small, I get that not everyone is interested in the same things I am (or lmao in William, which...fair), but I've made comments to ooc posts that have gone unanswered, I made a post inviting people to plot or play whatever they wanted with the letters that largely wasn't tagged, I've put out general and specific plotting calls on discord and I'm really not sure what to do at this point. I want to do plot stuff! My character wants to do plot stuff! But because of my schedule/writing speed, it basically takes me a week to put together a top level (while sidelining all my old threads) and...I do currently have plans with one person, but other than that, when I post to the new event there's a chance it's just not gonna get tagged and I'm kinda like ?????????????????????
I could just have William go off and explore on his own—that's IC! But while it's the plot that drew me to this game, I'm here for character development—William could discover all the mysteries of the setting and I could not give less of a crap if it doesn't translate into CR. Which is why (well that and DID I MENTION I'M MOVING RIGHT NOW) I've held off on using my bonus points to do anything plot-wise—if no one's going to engage with it, well, what's the point? I love that this game is player driven, I get that people probably aren't used to that—because in a lot of games “player-driven” means “sometimes we'll let you vote in a poll”—but lately it's been so hard finding anyone who even expresses interest in doing anything. I don't know what's wrong, I don't know how to fix it, but there it is. I really don't want this game to become more “traditional”—in a more traditional game William would probably end up being assistant manager at a bank (or, like, dead), and let me tell you how little interest I have in that. I'm not here for NPCs that hold all the answers or events that just happen for the sake of something happening. I'm not even here for shitposting on the network (though I do enjoy it). I'm here for a genuinely player-driven plot, I just...if it's me, please tell me what I can do to work with everyone to make that happen. I just feel like I've hit a wall, and if it keeps up, I'll start just turning to the people I know want to thread with me to plan things, which is how people get left out.
Also re: Discord, I am 100% sure I contributed to the problem—I used it to stay in touch with the game when I was on break at work or otherwise couldn't tag. I'm genuinely sorry if those bursts of activity were off-putting to people or made them feel like they couldn't gain any traction in game. I'm not sure what can be done to turn it into a more open plotting platform at this point—I've been trying to keep my comments tied to stuff actually going on in game, but I really enjoy (and miss) just generally chatting about where my character's coming from and what he's interested in, which often plants the seeds that can leave to plot. I'm also not sure where this all-or-nothing mentality came from when it comes to discord—I never got the impression plotting was banned there, just that an effort needed to be made to include everyone in (and make everyone aware of) any plots.
I ABSOLUTELY HAVEN'T GIVEN UP ON THIS GAME, I still think it has a lot of potential and I love everyone here. It's just been such a struggle lately, and with the new event log being as empty as it is and crickets on the plot front, I'm really not sure how to proceed.
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We're sorry to hear your difficulty in getting people to plot with you. We're not entirely sure how to fix this problem, but we're definitely going to put muscle into making sure our CR meme goes up along with plots so there are more OOC spaces to plot. There's also the possibility of structuring OOC plotting posts differently; we're discussing what we think would work best for the game.
Your last sentence regarding Discord matches with what we intended, but through no one's fault but perhaps our own, things ended up course correcting too far; we wanted to make game chat easier to navigate and it ended up becoming a bit of a deadzone. The chat should always be a friendly place where you can post whatever you want (so long as it's, uh, appropriate), and we're sorry that's disappeared.